Noah Kagan, renowned Web entrepreneur and self-styled “Chief Sumo,” is the founder of AppSumo, Sumo.com, KingSumo and SendFox, multi-million dollar web services that help entrepreneurs grow their businesses. Kagan is no stranger to the world of startups and entrepreneurship, having worked at Facebook during its early days (he was employee #30), and as one of the first five employees at Mint.com. Kagan runs a personal blog at OkDork.com, where he covers topics ranging from business and marketing tools to tacos. You’ll also find him at Noah Kagan Presents, a weekly podcast where Kagan talks with other thought leaders about business strategy, productivity, and happiness. Kagan’s fun and quirky personality permeates everything he does, from the services his businesses offer (including growth-hacking and side hustling) to his LinkedIn bio, which features his signature open-mouthed smile and the assertion that he likes to “make things and eat tacos.”
1) In your post The Expert Curse, you assert that fun is your “why”? What does the construct of fun mean to you and why is fun important?
I told my therapist, “‘The point of me being alive is to have fun,’ and he said, ‘That’s bullshit. It’s not about fun. It’s about respect and creation.’” I reflected on that for a while and now think life is more about fulfillment. Something I’ve thought about recently is when you die, there is not a scorecard, there’s not a report card that is like, “OK, you lived a great fucking life. You go to heaven. A+. You get the express lane.” Alternately, “Hey, you’re a scumbag. You don’t get to go to heaven,” or whatever happens after we die. The challenge, though, given that reality, is how do you live then? How do you prioritize what things to live for? Because if you don’t know what is going to matter, how do you actually decide what to do today?
None of us have it figured out, so we try different things, and you find out what works for you. Publicly I only share things that have either not worked for me — so others don’t make the same mistake — or do work for me. You say “fun,” I’d probably say the words “more fulfilling.”
The things that I’m most proud of have not always been fun, but I think they have one commonality. They have been experiences where I genuinely cared about the outcome and joy has come from the process of fulfillment (of the outcome). So let’s take the Sumo 50 as an example. I get no money; I get no extra recognition.
2) You have mentioned you find this Mike Tyson quote inspiring:
I find it fascinating that if you reflect on what things bring you the most satisfaction — where you have felt really proud and fulfilled — generally it was something that was hard in some way. When something isn’t really challenging for me, it is actually not as satisfying. It’s actually not really fun.
I’ll flip your questions around, how do you make a life well-lived fun? Let’s say something sucks, you don’t like what’s going on, how can you make it fun? What about it can you create that would lead it to an outcome that is more fun?
Here is an example, I don’t really like meditating. I think it’s kind of lame. Everyone says it’s helpful. A lot of people I respect do it, so I assume there’s something there. How do I make mediating fun for myself to be able to do it? So the two things I’ve incorporated for myself is, one, I got this app called Strides. There’s also one called Streaks. Basically, the app lets you check every day that you have done something. I have turned the process into a game. Second, I have added music. I found that if I add a little bit of music, it helped me think better about nothing, which is, I guess, the point of meditation. I said, “All right, I want to do this thing, how do I change my perspective of it to help make accomplishing the task more enjoyable?”
3) Seeing that fun is a key ingredient in a significant portion of the things you architect and create, what are some of the elements of your design/thinking process that ensures fun is baked-in (to the process and/or outcome)?
Two things, one, at work, I have discovered that people have fun at tasks that I think are not fun. So I am careful about how I project my feelings about certain tasks onto others. For instance, there’s no way I’d want to be an accountant. However, there are these women and men that love counting numbers all day and they get some fulfillment out of it. We need to be considerate of what we assume is fun for ourselves, versus another, so we don’t affect the amount of fun and fulfillment another feels.
Working with people, a question that I’ve found helpful is, again, “How can you make it fun?” As an example, one of our guys might get depressed every time he does a call and cannot close a sale. I would ask, “How can you make every call fun for yourself? What can you always do to create fun?”
Two, if you have had an amazing experience, how can you make it repeatable? As an example, two days ago, I had a fucking amazing day. So I asked myself, “What elements happened in this day that made it fucking great? And now, how can I create these? How can I put these elements automatically in my week, so every day is great?” Engineer a day for fulfillment. Figure out what elements make a great day for yourself. You clearly find fun rewarding? Ask yourself what elements need to be consistently in your day to ensure it will be fun. Was today a day worth living? I subconsciously always think about this question. It comes in and out of my mind all the time. How am I creating, end to end, the components that make my day fulfilling? It doesn’t mean that every day is going to be great, but we should always be looking at ways to increase the probability or the likelihood that days in the future are going to be better than ones in the past. Personally, I’m trying to engineer, in my weeks, more activities that are going to make me feel good about the way I have spent my time.
4) On the February 2018 podcast episode you did with Sagi Shrieber, you discuss that part of the reason we should ensure whatever we are doing is fun is the finality of life. Since the passing of my younger brother, I have been preaching this ideological principle myself. I use the heuristic a bias towards fun. When and how did the motivation of the scarcity of time come into play for you? Given your influence with early-stage entrepreneurs, is there any wisdom from this experience that would benefit this group that in many cases put the hustle before their own well-being?
When my dad died, I was hit with the realization that time is not forever. I was like, “Oh shit. People are going to fucking die.” I think you don’t really realize that until someone close to you goes away. In your 20s, you’re trying to figure out life. Even though I pretty much just worked the whole time in my 20s, it was the right decision for me. I had a lot I wanted to do professionally. I’d see older guys go home and think they did not work as hard but in reality were actually just better at prioritizing than I am — at their stage in life they had a handle on where they wanted to spend their time and likely had the wisdom to get more done in the same amount of time. I have noticed as I get older I get more intentional.
This applies to the use of energy, not just the use of time. There is a book I love and recommend called “The Power of Full Engagement.” I’m actually rereading it now. It highlights that you should critically exam what activities, which people, which places, which things, are really energizing you and which are draining.
5) As a connoisseur of life experience, what is on your bucket list?
This might not be the answer you are looking for, but I am intrigued how a bucket list changes. My dream used to be, how can I get a million dollars? Now, I have a million dollars, but it did not change me much — I’m still the same schmo. How is that exciting? I didn’t even get a sticker. I don’t share this to brag, but to highlight how so many of us want to get to the outcome, but the journey is where the magic is. It’s always hard to hear that during the journey because the process doesn’t feel good sometimes. The prize is sometimes what keeps you going, but it rarely is what is joyful. I could simply give you a list. I did Ayahuasca recently. I went to Lambeau Field. I went to the Magic Castle, which was a lot of fun. I have wanted to fly on a private jet. Recently did that. The experiences you have in the spaces of checking this stuff off is what is important. Who cares about my personal list? The more important question is what’s on yours? Will it bring you fulfillment? And, how are you going to have fun getting there?